Coming up a special two-part, staggered basketball podcast. Maybe a little braided Rose, too, in part two next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have new rewatchables coming for you on Monday night. We did a long came Poly, me and Sean Fentany. It's going up Monday night. You'll also be able to watch it on youtube. Com/bilsimmons, where part one of this podcast, we're doing it live, and people watch it live. Maybe they don't have to listen to this. If you missed Live. You can listen to this podcast. You go on YouTube and watch it. But that's what we're doing. Part two is going to run much later tonight, midnight, normal time. We're going to be covering a lot of what should they do stuff for the NBA plus OKC Dallas and the Boston series, Nicks, Pacers, and Van Lathen is going to join us in part 2 as well. Part 1, we are talking magic, Cavs, Game 7. What a crazy fork of the road that was. Then we're going to do a lot of Minnesota, Denver. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we are live on YouTube.

I wish my voice were. It is 12:52 PM Sunday. Just watch the Cleveland Cavaliers Outlast, the Orlando Magic. We're taking the first part of the BS podcast right now. Ryan Rosillo is here, a. K. A. Red Light, Rosillo. We are going to dedicate this episode to Franz Wagner's Trade Stock, which took a massive hit today, Rosillo. But let's start positive with the Cavs. It got dark there in the second quarter. I was preparing for this pod, and I'm just on Trade Machine making up Mitchell trades. I'm looking at the Cavs' salaries. I'm like, Would they trade Mitchell and Jared Allen? Is Mowly available? Is Bickerstaffe going to get fired at halftime? Fans are booing. It just seemed bleak. And then all of a sudden, near the end of the second quarter, it started to flip. They're down 10 in halftime, and then second half took over. Did you think that was it for Cleveland at any point during that game?

No, not at all, because I just know Orlando's offense, especially on the road. Really, Paolo was keeping him alive, not so much with his shot He's going to be in his free throws. When it was 49-31, look, no matter who it is, unless it's just a complete mismatch, I feel like even as bad as games get, someone's going to make some push. This is why you have a Mitchell who, at his best, if he had qualified, I probably would have voted him all NBA this year. Even though I know he's not perfect, he can just take over games with his aggressiveness. I thought he realized that Levert finally had a decent game. Struce showed up in the third quarter. You're probably trying to figure out if you could trade Garland some point, too. But it was 49, 31. Then from that point on, and the final score is different, but it was 99-87, Cleveland, and a 12-point deficit for Orlando seems insurmountable with this offense. Over that time, Cleveland outscored him, 68 to Was there a result from this series that was actually going to make you feel drastically different about either one of the roster questions?

That's a good question, actually, because the result, I here was that they didn't have Jared Allen in this game. I just like watching the Cavs more when they have one big guy instead of two, which I felt that way when Moby was out there in the season and Jared Allen was the lone big guy. Just seems like when they have more space, they're more interesting. Moby, I think he had five or six turnovers in this game, but there was some rebounding, shot-blocking stuff he did and shot intimidation stuff that I thought was pretty important. I like how he played. He He's still a little sloppy, he's still a little clumsy. He's still a little weird around the rim, and he still feels like a little bit of a work in progress. When you compare him to people like Edwards and Palo, who are just precociously dominating as alphas in these playoff games, he seems super young compared to them. But yeah, that was the only result I had was, what do they do with Allen? Because if the Celtics wax them in round two, does that really change that much for them? I think the Mitchell thing, Mitchell needed those last couple of games here because I was looking He had 12 play-off games going back from 2022 through game 4, Orlando, where he was 21 a game, 42% field goal.

He had four wins. He was 4-8 in those games. Then game 5, it felt like he got going. I thought that was an important win for them because it really seemed like Orlando was going to steal that game. Game 6, he has 50. Today, he was awesome. I feel like he's reestablished himself as the asset that I think deep down, we all felt like he was, but we hadn't seen it on this stage in a couple of years until this week.

I'm pretty sure the league, though, would look at him and go, Okay, if he's available and he wants to resign with us, we'll take him, which I think was the debate about the New York decision and the Cleveland decision at the time. We sit around and we talk about these teams, and we critique them for some of the trades, and it's like, Well, what are we supposed to do? Wait for the first-team All-MBA guy? We're supposed to wait to be a perfect fit for him. If Cleveland had been balanced, it would have been more disappointing because it's a two years with the Mitchell Garland thing that I still think has questions. You're absolutely right about the Allen-Mobly part, but to not have Allen as a possibility when he's 17 and 14 in the series isn't a good thing. But it makes it... Granted, he's not playing, so that means Mowly is going to be split. With these guys, but it just was going to feel more disappointing if Cleveland lost game seven at home. At home. But we're going to be asking the same stuff if they get smoked by Boston. So whatever you think you were going to ask today if they lost, if they don't beat Boston, and if it's a quick series, we're just going to delay the questions we were asking today.

And as far as Orlando, if they had gotten this one, it's like, okay, Palo Cech, man, Franz, he needs to be a better two option. They need shooting, maybe they need playmaking. They were going to need those things, even if it was a competitive second round. Sometimes the distance in the playoffs, I think, tricks us into talking about teams differently. When I was just watching this one, I was like, every single concern I've had either one of these teams is just evident, and then some team is going to win it.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think the one difference, though, is if Orlando loses, they were playing with house money. It's a game seven. They had a lot of young guys in this series. Sugs and Frons, I think, were three for 25 at one point. And Garland on the other end wasn't playing well either. These game sevens, national TV, when the crowd gets nervous, it's just a different energy and atmosphere. We've both been to game sevens. I've been to a lot of them, and it just feels different from the moment you're in the building. I think where the stakes were higher for Cleveland was the way that second quarter was going when the crowd was booming. And it just was like, man, if they lose by 20 at home in a game seven, What happens to this team? It felt like Bickerstaff's out probably the next day. Mitchell, The Trade Start immediately. Then it's like, Do we just keep two of Garland, Moby, Allen? What do we do? It felt like an explosion for about 10, 15 minutes there. Part of the problem for Orlando is Paula was putting upside. Did you see him at the end when they showed him that close-up?

He was like, There's different levels of tired. He was, I'm going to puke tired. They were showing him. He looked like that stupid MTV Challenge show that I watched when they're pushing the guys too far and they just bend over and start puking. It was like, is Paula just going to start throwing up on the court? That's how tired he was, but he was getting no help. Anyway, I thought it was a really dangerous half hour there for Cleveland that they fought off. Now, if they get swept by boss, then all the same questions get asked. But I don't think at the same level of intensity, right?

No, because that one, clearly, they're not expected to win, even though I thought this series was going to be pretty close. You're right. If Cleveland doesn't get game seven at home with this group for the second year, because last year was a disappointment against New York. It means more to them, the outcome, to go ahead and get this win. But on the Orlando side of this, and you're always bringing this up, and there's just constant reminders. I don't know if it's game seven. I don't know if it's being young in the first time through, but Franz and Sugs ended up three of 28 in this one.

I didn't know it got worse. I saw the three and 25. No, it got worse. Jesus, three and 28?

Three for 28, Franz, one of 15, 0 of 5 from three. I brought this up a couple of weeks ago where when we really liked Franz, it was like, Where's the hole in his game. The best version was, okay, he can put it on the floor. He's got all this size. He's a good defender, and he can shoot it. When you look at his college stats, even if the scattering report on him was that you didn't have to respect the shot enough, there was still enough of a percentage there where you felt like it was going to develop into something on top of his free throw shooting, which is what scouts always look at. Okay, maybe if I don't love the three-point numbers or don't love the way the shot always looks, there's something to work there. It became evident. There was just a lot of times in these games where Franz didn't even trust himself. They even brought it up in the broadcast where he said to them, I think it was with Salters, where he's like, I know I'm a better shooter than this. It's like, well, you've got to have to fight through that doubt because then he starts getting a little clunky with it, and he's just going to the hoop.

But you could see he was just really struggling with it. So then you go, okay, Sugs isn't making shots. He's not making shots.

But Sugs wasn't afraid to shoot, which was the difference. Franz had a couple of possessions. You could just see it, especially if you've ever played basketball, you can see it in somebody's demeanor. It's like, That guy doesn't want to shoot. He just did it. Cleveland started sagging off him, and he was like, Oh, fuck. I still don't want to shoot. Hey, does anybody want to come over and set a screen for me so I can try to get to the basket? It was pretty brutal.

I'm not sure how Orlando could ever win this game. If you're like, Okay, this is what the second and third options. They're going to shoot three of 28.

No, there was a way for them to win, though, It was with defense. I think they win a rock fight, which is like, if you were going to pick Orlando in this game, the over-under, I think, got to 195. It went up after Jared Allen went out. Orlando was plus four. If you're going to pick Orlando, it is like a '78 to '73 final or an '88 to '81. It's one of those type of games. The problem for them is Mitchell got going, and then Struce, out of nowhere, became Miami Struce again for five minutes, and he hit those three threes. He hit 33 points in the third quarter. That was what swung the game. But I think there was a recipe for Orlando to win where it was just ugly, and Paula was getting in the line over and over again. Mitchell was three for 13 in the first half, and it felt like he just couldn't get it going. Then that meant nobody on Cleveland was going to get it going. But then he got it going.

But this is why you pay Mitchell. This is why there'll still be demand for Mitchell, because in the gossipy world of the NBA, there's not anyone that I've talked to that thinks that he would actually tell them, Hey, I'm going to sign here. So all of this may be delaying the stuff that we talked about at the beginning. But as imperfect as you can argue Mitchell can be, I've talked about the downside of him being a little peak Westbrook light-ish, where he'll just go like, I got to do this all on my own. Well, sometimes you need that, especially when there's nothing from Garland. Levert hadn't been good until this game. And Garland, if they lose this one, then it turns into a bad Garland summer. So who knows? Although he had a really important stretch there late where he got steal on Sugs after the inbound when the game still felt like it was in play. He then hits a shot, then gets a rebound. So I'm reaching for Pete Garland.

He was playing hard. Can I make a Garland defense for five seconds?

I like Garland, so go ahead.

I like him a lot. That broken jaw thing is not a small thing if you're a basketball player and you're coming back from a real injured ear face and you're a guard, and I just think it fucks with your head a little bit. I was looking at his stats. Two years ago, he was basically 22 and 9 before the Mitchell trade. Then it's gone backwards. Now, he's like a 17 and 6 guy. But I don't have questions about him yet. I didn't love how he played today, but I also think he had a really weird season.

The Mitchell one- He just shot less, too. He was taking even less shots in the series. I think that's going to happen once. Just had the ball a lot. Yeah. Once Mitchell decides, Okay, I think the only thing... We need eight Superman minutes, and Mitchell, even with the is capable of doing that in a way that's just not a long list of players in the league.

Well, a couple of things helped Mitchell in this game. I don't think Sugs was the Sugs from the regular season, really, since he got hurt earlier in the year. That's not an excuse for Orlando because Mitchell made some great shots. But I watched Sugs this year, and he was a better defender than he was, especially in this game. Every time there was a break, he was limping around. It seemed like he had five different injuries, and I just think he was really banged up. The other thing was, I thought Moseley really helped Cleveland with not using Isaac enough. I didn't understand the Isaac use at all. He put him on Mitchell for two possessions. I think at the start of the fourth quarter, and I was like, Here we go. Where the fuck was this all game? And the first time they got him in a pick, and Mitchell was able to get by whoever the switch was. And the second time, he took a bad 28-footer over him. But Isaac was doing that Bill Russell time machine thing, and I was like, This is how they get back in it. Just put Isaac on Mitchell for five minutes here, and then Moseley took him out.

Moseley, I thought, was all over the map in this game. He played 10 guys. In a game seven, he might be the first guy that played 10 guys in a game seven in 20 years. I'd love to see the stats on that. His rotations were all over the place. Franz didn't have it at all, and he just kept putting the offense in his hands. I just didn't understand the coaching.

The second unit was so good a few games ago where I thought it changed the game for them. I think that was game four. Maybe there's part of it where he felt like, Okay, that was worth it. Maybe he's afraid of putting Isaac straight up on Mitchell, and then they just screen him, and now Isaac's away from everything. I'm just trying to figure it out. I'm trying to think here. The last 50, 61 minutes, Isaac made four shots. So for an offense- You can't have him and Franz out at the same time.

With Sugs also missing everything. But maybe the way to do it was just like, We're just going to try to stop you on defense every time, and let's have the final score of this game be 70, like a 2004 playoff game. The final score will be 74 to 71, and we're going to contest and switch on everything. Look, this is why you have game seven at home, because I think if game seven is in Orlando, I think Orlando wins. The regular season still matters, Ursillo.

It still mattered. Ocoro, too, by the way, with his assignment on Palo, I thought just worked his ass off.

Did a good job.

As much as we all love Paolo, I think there are times where he can get himself stuck because he's so big, he can pass out of any... When he picks up his dribble, it's like, Okay, well, I can still maybe hit a turnaround. I can still pass out of this. I can see over the top of everybody. But that's what you hope he's going to do. All right, stop yourself, stop your own momentum, and then be 10 feet away and then not really know what you're going. There's so many Palo turnarounds where I'm like, Oh, that's probably not the shot you want. Then it goes in that it's hard to get on him too much. But I can't even really even be critical of him despite the overall shooting numbers for tonight, because it's like, Well, he was the only one doing anything for such large chunks of this game.

Yeah, you needed the one irrational confidence. They even needed the Max Struce three-threes in five minutes guy. And they just... Anything. That guy was not on their We're going to take a break for the podcast and stay on YouTube and come back and talk about what does Orlando do. All right, coming back. See, that's how we do it, folks. All right, so Orlando, big picture. Hey, man, seven-game series. We were leading in a halftime, feeling great. We're a young team. We have cap space. This is a positive year for us. Don't get too shaken by that. The negatives, Franz is just not with the offensive game he has now, and he's been in the lead now a couple of years. I don't think you can comfortably say, If we're a title team, he can be the second best guy. Not positive he could be the third best guy. To me, he's in where Michael Porter Jr. Is on Denver, where you can't be the first or second best guy, and maybe you can't even be the third best guy. But if you're the fourth best guy, that's awesome. Maybe that's who he is. The only thing that would change that is if he shoots a million cajillion threes this summer and at least fixes that a little.

But this was all year. He couldn't make a three all year. I'm starting to wonder maybe that's who this is, a really good slasher guy who teams are going to leave open.

I don't understand it because as we said in the beginning with his college stats, I went back and looked at some of the stuff. I'm like, it's actually higher than you would think. He was 35, he was 36, he was 28% from three this year. But after the All-Star break, it just fell off. He was just under 19%. It's like 25 games. There's no way.

And some of those were open.

I just can't fathom that that's who he's going to be this whole time. So the whole first, second, third, clearly, he's not a first. They won 47 games this year. So before we start predicting, Hey, can they be in the short list of four or five teams that win a title? They're not there. I still really good about what they've done and that they have somebody in Palo who has a chance to be one of those players. Yeah, I agree. Maybe in comparison to some of these other teams, you could argue they were even ahead of schedule.

If you were them... Mitchell, now he just beat them. But Mitchell could be one of the guys who's on the market this summer. If he's like, I'm not extending. He's got a year left on his deal. Then teams will be lining up and everybody seems to think he wants to go to New York. Miami is always looming, but it does feel like Orlando is a possibility for them. There's the Paul George free agent signing possibility. Then there's the Hale Mary of Booker saying, This Sun situation sucks. Get me out of here, which I think is unrealistic. What player would you want for them? Who are you looking for? Who's on your Christmas list for them?

It has to be... It's funny because I actually think two warriors would fit the bill here. Where you go, All right, well, could Chris Paul play 20 minutes and un clog some of these? Because what I don't want them to do is I don't want them to bring in somebody so ball dominant that then it takes away from some of Paolo's possessions. It's one of the hardest things with all these talented players to be like, who overlaps and then who compliments with their skillset or really even their mindset of how they want to attack the game. So I think they need some guard that's a little bit more deferential that could still shoot. But I don't know what people think of Chris Paul now at this point, and I don't know if this team would be good enough for him to sign for less money. That's why I still think Clay is going to make a lot of money somewhere. Because on top of everything else, he's a great teammate, he's a good dude. I think despite the Sacramento game in the play and elimination, he salvaged himself somewhat this season from the lows of him almost having these open therapy sessions with the media after the game, which is not surprising for somebody like him in his stature to go through everything he went through.

We could sit here and say, Paul George, and maybe I don't know what Ingram's availability is going to be, but it has to be shooting.

Ingram, I don't think makes sense for this team.

No, not at all. But I'm just for names. I mean, there are other names.

Because I thought the same thing. I was like, Ingram, Franz, is there something there? And then it's like, Well, why would New Orleans want to turn Ingram into Franz? Well, they might. Really?

I think you're being a little hard. If this is who you think Franz is going to be, then I can't win the argument.

I just don't think he has the same. I don't think he has the same stock that Ingram has. Oh, yeah. Rudy points out they have the ability to do the Van Blicke contract with somebody where it's like, whoa, two for 80? We've been talking about Malik Mok to the magic for two months here, and that's the guy they needed in this series. Or like a Tyler Hero, who I think I realized during the Celtic Series, his destiny is probably his White Lou Williams. He's this awesome six-man scorer guy, but not somebody who's going to be one of your three best guys. But they need a monk, a hero, somebody who can come in, run the offense, take some shots, be a heat check guy. Those guys are out there. There's a few of those in the league. I feel like they could get one of those dudes. It was the thing their roster was missing this year. Paul George, I said this on Thursday's pod, I went to the Wednesday Clipper Mavs game. You were there, too. They do the starting lineups and they were like, It is 14th year from whatever, Paul George. I'm like, Whoa, it's going to be year 15 for him next year?

He's got a metal rod in his leg and it's like, Here's 200 Paul George. It's like, Do you feel afraid about that? Because I'm not positive I do, especially if you're Orlando and you have some of the injury history they've had over the years with rich superstars that they've signed. So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but maybe when Palo's 21, maybe it's not like a rush. Maybe this is baby steps. They don't have to make their version of the Mitchell trade or the Gobert trade. Take your time.

I was wondering if this got bad. Again, I think we probably ask a lot of these questions depending on how far Cleveland goes. But if you were New Orleans, but see any Mitchell trade-For Mitchell.

I had it written down. I think it's the most logical non-big city team for him.

The next thing doesn't make any sense anymore. And unless he just goes, Hey, force me to Brooklyn, and that's the only place I really want to go, and then he controls the transaction more than the teams do. But I can't imagine it's a real long list of teams where he'd be like, Yeah, I'll go see how it is in New Orleans, and I'll sign an extension there. I thought David Griffin was really revealing and interesting during that. That was pretty rare because a lot of teams... I mean, the whole model is set up for all of these players to feel like failures and all these front offices to go. I guess we didn't really do it. But part of what he was talking about where he was like, Hey, for a certain stretch, we had the best net rating. And I was like, Come on. Because I think you can take these snapshots of seasons where you can talk yourself into your team being at this level that it's not really at. This year is incredibly frustrating because of the way Zion goes out in that playing game against the Lakers. But then for him to say, I think we've seen this group enough that we can't come back.

Then you're like, Oh, okay. All right.

Well, let's- Because we agree. We agree, David Griffin. Let's party.

Yeah. I thought it was very honest and revealing once he built to the point of saying the stuff that they did well and that he was proud of, because I think there's a version of that Pelicans thing where it ends a little bit better if they had Zion to close. I wouldn't have picked him against OKC, even with healthy Zion. But that feels like the team, but it's never been a destination. Nobody's ever gone, Hey, I want to go there.

Yeah, and especially you're signing up for a basketball situation, because I assume Ingram would have to be in that trade, and maybe even McCollum, with Mitchell and Picks. And now your future is tied to whether Zion decides whether he wants to be in shape or not. But the problem for Mitchell is he wants to be in New York, and I just don't see how Brunson and Mitchell make sense. I've argued with nick fan friends about... We're already talking about Mitchell trades. Meanwhile, he had 89 points in a game six and a game seven. You could have made jokes about his suitcases were packed at halftime, he was ready to go. But he really wanted to win that game. I thought even the stuff they showed on the sidelines with him trying to get Garland going, that was some of the best leader stuff I've seen from him in a game. He really took that game on, didn't want the season end. So that made me think like, well, maybe Cleveland is the best situation for him. He goes to Brooklyn. Who's he playing with? I mean, Bridges has to be in that trade. So now it's just, hey, it's Donovan Mitchell and a bunch of ninth men.

He goes to the Knicks with what's happened with Brunson. I don't know if I mess with the Brunson thing. Here's another ball dominant guy. You just compared Mitchell in an unironic way to there's a little Westbrook in him, which I didn't disagree with. I don't know how you put that with Brunson. So then you start thinking about Miami, you start thinking about, Hey, Lakers, what if LeBron's like, Draft, Bronnie, I want to come home? But New Orleans, from a basketball sense, might make the second most sense. I think Cleveland makes the most basketball sense for him.

I'm just not sure. As much as I like both of them, whenever I was watching Atlanta this year, I'd be like, Man, it just feels like Trey and DeJante don't really play basketball together. They stagger their minutes, and when they do play the game together, it feels just very taking turns-ish. It doesn't really feel like they're ever playing ball together. I think it's been a little bit better at times with Garland and Mitchell, but it gets back to the original point of what I would want Orlando to have, and that's somebody that's complementary to Palo and not somebody that's overlapping.

It would be two guys, right? It's just so hard. Not just one.

No, but I mean, just like in Mitchell and Garland, you go, Okay, cool. I have two guys who can shoot, two guys who can handle, two guys who can play make, and two guys that can drive and get to the hoop, especially with Mitchell. That's his greatest skill of like, I really, really need to get to the hoop in some of these stretches. We saw that so much in the last two games from him, which is just really special to be able to do that in the playoffs, and we've seen him do it before. But then I look at Brunson, and I'm telling you, I love this next team. This is one of my favorite teams in years. But then I'm honest with myself and go, Okay, but what do you actually think they're capable of?

The cab that makes sense on that team is actually Jared Allen. If you're going to pick a cab that could make everything that we like about this next team better, you'd take Jared Allen.

I think Jared Allen works on a ton of different teams, and I'm sure Caps fans are losing it right now as they just won game seven. We're talking about potential trade. We've traded nine Caps. Maybe just the rules are we shouldn't be doing this. But I think it speaks more to the Brunson point and all the Mitchell rumors and how important today was. But again, may have just delayed all of this stuff that we're doing anyway. I don't want to mess with Brunson, but I also don't know if you can survive through, say, three playoff rounds with that being your offense and him taking 30 shots a game. It's awesome. But can you actually do that? I don't know. The history doesn't tell you this works.

Well, we're about to find out over the next two rounds. I had a thing written down. It's a borderline. I'd tell Kyle to turn the TikTok camera on, but we have the YouTube camera on. Who is Boston rooting for in that game?

Probably Cleveland.

I think so, too, which is weird because they proved they were better than Orlando. But I think if the goal is, don't put a lot of miles on us in round two, don't just get in a weird basketball situation that's unconventional. Orlando is a funky matchup for them. They have a lot of defenders to throw at different guys in the cells to get in their heads to muck it up. I I didn't want to muck it up series for them around, too. I want them to keep the flow they have. In Cleveland, they'll have a better flow. Mitchell will win one game. But Boston, they should have swept the series with them this year, except for the Dean Wade game. Dean Wade came in, left his body. I don't know if he's coming back for round two. Maybe I'd be a little more nervous, but I felt the same way. I was like, I'm actually a little more nervous of Orlando in this next round than Cleveland. Does that sound insane, though? You think people are listening this going, That's nuts. Cleveland just won the series. Mitchell is the best player on either team?

Wait, you think Mitchell's better than anyone in this series, not better than- Better than Palo.

Yeah, no, I'm talking about Mitchell versus Palo.

Just double-checking. That's what I thought because halfway through, I was like, I think he meant this series. It's just the length defensive thing. I think sometimes defense with Austin, they can get in some bad habits offensively.

Right. And Orlando could muck that up. With that said, after watching Moseley play guys and then put Jonathan Isaac on ice in the fourth quarter. Now retroactively, I'm like, Oh, I wish we got in Orlando. I wish we had gone against watching Franz go one for 25 and it gave seven. Oh, Orlando probably would have been a better pick.

I don't think it's a definitive answer. They're going to beat either team. They should be able to... If they're this good and as good as they looked through the four games against Miami, that series ended up playing out the way that it should have with the one blip three-point shooting game where it's not like it went six tough games. You're like, What the hell are they doing this again?

Right. They killed them four times and then lost a random game. Right.

They should still be dramatically better than either of the two teams that played today.

Some of the stuff Mitchell was doing in this game, I was trying to think of other guards that I've seen, and the only other guy I could think of was Dwyane Wade, late 2000s. These guards that are not huge guys but are super physical and have a way of going to the basket the same way like somebody like Embiid would or LeBron would, but they're small, and how they use their body and protect the ball and bounce off dudes. Just constantly, guys are sprawling backwards. You're like, Was that an offensive foul? What happened on that? They'll show the replay and it's like, Man, it feels like he just muscled that guy backwards and then just gets this weird layup. I don't think I've seen a lot of guards in my life that have some of the moves that he has. It's weird. It comes and goes because sometimes he seems super happy to just take 25 footers and not play that way. Then other times when he plays that way, it's like, Oh, shit. How do you stop this? I think you stop it with length, which is why I wanted them to put Isaac on him.

But who else is like him to you?

Darren Williams used to be just really good at creating all... He used to have this crossover that was nasty, but then he also would just go right at you, get his shoulder into chest, and he would create... Now, look, I think Mitchell is probably a little quicker than Darren Williams is, but peak Darren Williams. He probably argues even better than Mitchell. He was just so nasty and he was so physical, even though you thought of him probably more as a Not prototyical, but he just felt a little bit more point guard-y-ish than maybe Mitchell does. But my favorite thing for Mitchell was just you go through enough of these games, you've got a little bit of a playoff resume. It's not amazing for Mitchell as far as the of distance that he's gone with other teams that he's been with. But just seeing like, Hey, you know what's screwing us up on offense is when we wait around, when we let Orlando get settled again off the first thing that we're doing. That was maybe part of the Boston answer, where it's like when Boston gets a little clogged, they can just stand there, and then it's like, Okay, but you're making it easier for the defense.

Mitchell, it felt like the light went off with him. It was like, Stop waiting. Stop waiting. It's like, As soon as you come off the screen, go. As soon as you have the ball, go. As soon as somebody thinks they're coming up, make a decision there. Some of these guys that are so good in the regular season, it almost takes them a bit of a wake-up call being like, Oh, I guess I can't just screw around and wait to do something offensively because they're right on top of me.

Well, I thought that was Minnesota yesterday to some degree. They were playing with a pace. I can't wait to talk about that series. But for the Celtics to win this series the way that they should, I think they're going to need Tatum and Brown to guard Mitchell because people haven't seen the Celtics that much. They're like, Oh, they'll just put White and Drew on Mitchell. It's actually not what they do sometimes. Sometimes they like to throw the forwards with Link at the guard, and then they use the guards, like to either guard three-point shooters and help off. It would be interesting if Tatum was like, Let me take Mitchell out this series. I don't think he would do it because I think he'd want to match. There's some ego stuff like, No, I'll match him on our end. But I like sometimes, and they've done this a few times this season, when Tatum's like, Let me take that guy out. We have enough offense. I'll be the one that guards him. Jalen will do the same thing every once in a while. They have so many guys to throw at him that it's going to have to be somebody else, I I think that chips in with the Cavs.

It can't be like tonight. Garland is going to have to show up, or Moby is going to have to start putting together the 2015s, or Struce is going to have to hit more threes. Struce, a semi-Boston killer. I'm not giving him total Boston killer status, but he had a couple of moments against him.

I don't blame you forever for being horrified by everybody that was involved with that team last year. But that's the advantage Boston should have with a team that feels like there's the one guy unless Garland gets the shooting going again. He just needs to be more aggressive shooting. I think he's good enough to be better than he was this past season or series, I should say. But if you're trying to just screen into Horford all the time, the two people are just going to stay with Mitchell constantly, because if Allen isn't back, Alan provides maybe a little bit more spacing than Mowbley does. I know that doesn't necessarily sound right because Mowbley is still supposedly going to shoot from the outside. But you would just leave whoever the big guy is setting that screen. You're probably not going to close. You're going to say, Go ahead, make your first three shots, and we're going to do it a fourth time and ignore you.

Feel free to make 16, 20 footers in this game. What do you think the line of the series is on, Fender? Celtics Cavs.

Boston minus 500.

Boston minus 1,600. The Cavs are plus 820. Underdogs. This is without Porzingas. Celtics in 4 is plus 185. Celtics in 5 is plus 175. Celtics in 6 is plus 470. The last time the Cavs won a playoff series was 2018, game seven. The It's a weekend of bricks. Rockets, Warriors, and Cav, Celtics, game sevens, when they combine for 275 mysteries between the two teams. Just a parade, a barrage of bricks. Now it's back, Cleveland and Boston. We'll see how that goes. Let's take one more break for the podcast, then we'll come back on YouTube and we'll talk about our guy, Anthony Edwards. So, Minnesota, Denver. I was looking up... Actually, where do you want to start with Minnesota, Denver? I'll let you lead because I know that level of basketball yesterday was... And I saw you last night because we went to go see Shane Gillis. But we were both on a high after game one in Minnesota, Denver. Just about as good of a playoff basketball game one as you're going to get in a series.

Yeah, I almost said no to Gillis just because I was like, Do I Can I emotionally pivot that quickly after? I was thinking about where I would be during the day, and I was like, Well, I cannot believe this is a second-round series. I can't believe we're this lucky. I think I would start with the defense, like what we talked about there a little bit in the beginning. It's a lot of where Phoenix is like, Are you serious? Booker with Jamie McDonald is going like, Wait. You did this the whole game? This is what we're going to do? I'm not even at half-court yet, and I'm worried about getting it over. You saw that with Murray, and Murray had another slow start, although that wasn't the biggest problem. When they were up 18:04, I'm like, Okay, well, Denver isn't going to get it run off the floor. That wasn't the case. The cat stretch, the Nas stretch. There's a lot of really good things in there. I think the alarming thing if you were Denver and you watched the film from it is you're like, Man, they got good looks the whole time.

And Denver did not. No. Denver worked really hard. My My biggest fear for Denver in this series, and I'm rooting for Denver because I just like Jokuj, and I like Denver, and I like when teams try to go back to back. But I'm also rooting for Minnesota because I have a pretty large Celtics Timberwolves' Finals bet with 16 to 1. So I was back and forth. Couldn't decide where I was going. But the thing that alarmed me for Denver was, I was like, Man, there's a recipe where they're just throwing these big guys at Jokuj They're just making him work the whole game. It's just two and a half hours of just not fun to be Jokuj in this game. There's that. But then there's the McDaniels, Edwards, just them taking turns on Murray and just making his life miserable. If those two things are happening simultaneously. What else is going on for Denver? That entire game one was just, if Minnesota is going to play defense like this, and then they're getting the Ant piece on the other end, and he's going to be able to rise to that level offensively, Denver can't them.

The question is, can he do that again? Is that who he is or did he have a really good game? Because if he's there or close, Minnesota is going to win the series.

I picked Minnesota. It was a coin toss for me because I didn't really like picking against Denver, especially him having the home court. When the Gobert town things works, it's Gobert just swallowing up Gordon. Then he's left to roam off of Gordon because if Gordon tries to stretch the floor by sitting in the corners, the Gobert is just not going to pay attention to him. But Then you have the town's foul piece where... I mean, you had a tweet on this the other week, and I don't know that it got enough credit. His foul habits are atrocious.

Yeah.

He just decides to get these awful... He had two in a minute when he came back in yesterday, we were like, Do you not want to play today? I actually was wondering if Michael Nory, who was in for Finch, but I'm sure it's really Finch's call because he's sitting there right on the bench. But when Nas was so good, I was like, Do you actually go back to Towns? Because Nas- We talked about this last night.

They put Towns in with two minutes left, and it was like, We know we're going to win the game.

Why do you think they did that?

Because they didn't want it to be a story after the game that Towns was benched for the last seven minutes. There's no other reason. Nas was the second best guy they had in the second half of that game. You're not taking him out. They had to take it out for... You could lose Towns potentially if you're just sitting him for the last seven, eight minutes. That was why they did it.

I think you're right. If Towns in a foul trouble, then I'd think, Okay, so that means Rudy has to play Jokić straight up. If you look at Jokić when he has just Rudy, he goes right out. He doesn't really have that much fear of him at all. I wouldn't say it's as excited as he gets when Rui was on him in the first round where it was like, Oh, my God, oh, my God. Give me the ball. Give me the ball. I'm actually not going to pass here. He has no concern because I think he always thinks he can get. But the problem is if it's towns and then Rudy helping off Gordon, I 11 to 25 and 2 from 9 from 3. I mean, Jokuj took 9-3s in that game because he'll also have moments where he's like, All right, I got to get going. I did start taking tougher shots here. I don't know that you're going to get that from Jokuj again.

But you left out the Nas defense part because that was the other piece of this.

That's the point that we get it to. It's like with towns gets into foul trouble, then you start thinking, Oh, then it's Rudy straight up on him. It's like, Well, yeah, but they have this Nas piece against a Denver team that doesn't have another big they feel good about playing.

Well, and then the other way they were using Nas. Listen, If I ever get hit by a bus and they're like, What are the things you truly cared about? And list 12 things. I really want one of them to be, if the other team isn't using their point card to bring up the ball, just pressure them 94 feet. Because Minnesota went in this game and it's like, Jokuj is going to bring the ball up. We're going to fucking make them work. Nas was picking him up at the top of the three-point line on their side of the court and just hounding him, pushing him. I thought they did something. I watched a Tony Jokuj. That It was the first time I've seen a team speed him up where he was playing at a speed that I felt like was 10% faster than maybe he was happy about. They managed to do it and they got him where he just... I never felt like he was totally in control of the game. His stats were fine. But in terms of the typical Jokuj Meister thing, now part of it, this is why game 2 is going to be so interesting.

You're coming off a Lakers game where they had just figured out the Lakers and when they really needed a score on them and who to attack and who to get in a switch and all that. He just figured it out. He controlled the pace. They never pressured him. So he's going to adjust because he's a genius of basketball. But my big thing for game two is, can they speed him up like that again? Have you ever seen him? I don't want to say he was frantic, but he just seemed like a little overcaffenated. That's not normally what he's like.

I thought there was stuff around the rim where he just wasn't... I expect everything to go in around the rim. I know, that's big. His touch, it's like he's placing the ball up towards the rim the same way.

We're comparing him to the greatest player ever.

I'm not worried about him at all, but I would agree there were certain things throughout the course of the day. We're like, Oh, that feels a little non-yoke-ish-y. Porter continues to have these stretches when the offense around him doesn't really have much going on. He had some stretches during LA where you're like, That was the game. Murray, he was of 14. His shooting numbers from three were fine. He was only 2 of 4, but he was below 30% against the Lakers, so I don't know how much of the calf thing is there.

Can I do my percentages on him?

Yeah, I love it. 81, 74.

Eighty-four. That seems high. It felt like 84% healthy to me. But they were clearly trying to put Miles on him that whole game. They were like, this guy's not 100%. Watch McDaniels. Let's go, let's go, let's go.

Mcdaniels had some early opportunities offensively where you're like, all right, that's a make. Or they're turning the ball over. I'm like, this score should be bigger. They should have a bigger lead than they have right now because still some of these looks are really good. Then you have the amp thing that I can't believe we took this long to get to because it's so much fun. The shot making is absurd. But Pope provides zero resistance to him at all. It's not even close.

When he has Pope one on one- He felt physically so much bigger than him.

I don't know how that's solved unless it's an effort thing. But Pope, who we like defensively and you think, Hey, that's a nice little option to have out there.

No, he's a borderline elite defender, I would say. And he was just getting demolished.

Demolished.

Did you read the backstory on those guys?

With the Georgia background?

Yeah. Pope's known him for a while, and it's like a big brother to Ant. And Ant's like, He's my big brother, but I'm going to fucking destroy him in the series. Ant talks the best shit of anyone I think we've had in a while. I want to get to some stuff in a second. But what's big picture for this series, Denver was a minus 205 favorite heading into game 1. Denver is now a plus 108 favorite, Rosillo. Denver and seven was plus 410, 24 hours ago. Now it's plus 350. A Minnesota sweep is down to plus 5:50. The reason I bring this up, I know, you just made a face.

Well, come on.

No, don't give me the come on. I'm not saying it to you, but- I just wanted to talk it out for a split second.

It's just so disrespectful to even ask this. Go ahead.

This is why it's going to be good content. Because I'm going to do a whole thing about the history of Ant and some of the pool that he's swimming in right now. This T-Wolves team, a little similar, where this team has the look, and I don't know if it's legitimate or not, but we've seen it a couple of times in the history of the league where it was like the Bulls against the Pistons in '91. You're like, Man, they really kick their ass in game one. What did that mean? The Pistons will come back. Then it's like, They're down '02. Well, they're going back to Detroit. It'll be fine. Oh, shit. Are they going to lose game three? Then all of a sudden, it's a sweep. Same thing with Pistons-Lakers, which wasn't a sweep in '04, where I think the Lakers won game one or game two, and then it went to Detroit. It's like, The Lakers will steal game four. It's like, Oh, they're getting their asses kicked. Oh, this series is over because the '04 Pistons had the look. The other one I was thinking was the 14 Spurs when they split the series, the first two with Miami, and it went back to Miami, and then they killed them in game three.

People were like, Oh, Miami, lock it down. They're going to win tonight. I remember going on TV being like, I think there's a chance San Antonio might have figured this out in the series. The Miami is in real trouble here. Miami, remember they were down 20 points in every one of those games. This might just be a great spot for Minnesota, is my point. There are historical examples of a team coming off a long title run and just running into the wrong buzz saw at the wrong time. That's a wrong matchup for them when they're a little banged up. I would be afraid of that if I was a Denver fan. I'm still picking Denver to win in seven, but to me, every possibility is on the board now.

2012 Thunder Lakers is one I thought of.

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

Because I was like, Wait, these guys are giving it to them. They're not even remotely afraid of them at all. This isn't supposed to happen this soon, and that group ends up making it to the finals. They lost the first two to San Antonio, San when I was like, Okay, well, they're just not going to be ready enough to beat them. Then they went four straight, where all the things I liked about San Antonio, the athleticism of the Thunderbird, just overwhelming as that series took this course.

That's a really good example. Thank you for helping my theory. I don't know if it's a player or not.

I just don't like it. It was the first game. Minnesota hasn't lost a playoff game yet, so I would imagine the vibes are immaculate.

That's another thing that ties into that theory. The 91 Bulls, I think they lost two games, and one of When I told him it was in overtime. The bigger thing is if Ant's going to look like that, they're going to win the series. I went back. I did a little homework. I went back. He scored 36 in his first playoff game ever. Mj scored 30 plus in his second playoff game ever. Kobe, it wasn't until his 30th playoff game, he was younger. Wade, 14th playoff game. He scored 41 in his eighth playoff game ever, which is better than everyone but MJ. His last three games, 39.7 points for a three-game stretch. He's 22 years old. And you go back, MJ, his three Boston games, he was 23, 43.7. Kobe, when he had that 48 pointer against Sacramento, which is one of the great YouTube games. If you're going to make the case for the 2001 Lakers as the best team of all time, the game four of the Sacramento, it's like, Oh, and Shaq was also on this team. But he had three in a row and he averaged 43 a game. Wade was another one where he had little stretches like that, Jerry West.

But the stuff Ant's doing right now, historically, it's a different level. It's not just, Oh, my God. Wow, he looks like MJ. It's like he's doing stuff that the greatest two guards of all time were doing at this point of their careers when it seemed early, but it wasn't. To me, the ceiling is now even higher because of just what his last three games looked like. The stuff he was doing yesterday to Caldwell Pope was like post-baseball MJ stuff and late 2000s Kobe stuff and mid 2000s Wade stuff, like some combination of all of that where the young athlete stuff, but also this wherewithal of how to back somebody down, shoot these beautiful turnarounds. It's fucking crazy. For a 22-year-old to do that is fucking crazy. If I'm Denver, I'm terrified right now.

Yeah, that might just be the part of all of this, where when I was trying to figure out, and I changed my mind a bunch leading up to game one, and even though game one played out the way it does, I'm sitting here victory laughing like, All right, yeah, I picked the Timberwolves because knew it. But whenever I think about all the different things that could or couldn't happen in the series, I can't get past the fact. I'm like, maybe Ant is just this special. I mean, we obviously love him. We've talked him up. It's usually not how this works. There was a number that Goldsbury had the other day, players that have scored 35 plus in three straight playoff games at 22 or younger. It's Kareem, Kobe, LeBron, and Ant. What if this is just the beginning and he gets one of these early? They get out of the West. He might just be that good, and that might be the simple reason. Instead of like, okay, well, it means that they had... Look, all these other parts of it are certainly important if they're going to knock off a team as good as Denver.

But there's always like, I'll spend all this time looking at it. Hey, maybe just Ant is that sick. Maybe he's just that sick and it doesn't matter.

Shout out to basketball reference. I looked up on Stat Head, 23 and under, 28 points or more, 45% field goal or more, and just who's on the list. It's all the greatest players. It's Durant's 2012, which, by the way, was incredible that season, which you mentioned earlier. It's Kobe in 2001. It's Luca in '22. It's Jerry West of 1962, Kareem's first year, Bob McAdoo. It just goes on and on. And Ant has two because last year he did it, too. He's just Michael Jordan, Oscar. This is a different pool he's swimming in, to use the pool analogy again. But The shot looking this good this early.

I mean, he was under 30% from three from college. The team wasn't any good. I had a hard time with him where I was like, Is he taking bad shots, which is part of it. The team wasn't very good, but there was just a lot of bad decisions. He's really raw. He's a super athlete. He's got the ball a ton. You're like, All right, well, is he going to turn to this? Then he just physically, pretty quickly, you would watch him in the NBA. Now he's next to NBA guys. You're like, That guy looks like the most impressive person out there of the 10 guys running around.

It just looks so athletically easy for him sometimes. That play when he went full-court lefty in the fourth quarter, it seemed like they wanted a foul, but they weren't sure. And Ant just went 94 feet left-handed for a layup. And it just looked like he was a high school or an eighth-grade basketball game.

Think about what he's shown now is that he can drive in his size and get to the hoop. And then once Once he's at the rim against traffic, he figures out a way with a little... Nobody's Kyrie's finishing package, but there's certain things with him where you're like, Is he closed off? Does he have an angle? Yeah, he has an angle. He brought it up and under on this one, or he finished left hand on this one. I was like, Okay, so no one can really stay in front of him. If you stay even with him, he's probably going to be more physical than you. He's going to be quicker, he's going to be stronger. Then he has all of these things that he can do. He can shoot threes. His playmaking this year is incredible. Now, if he wants to slow it down in a playoff game and he gets the spacing he wants. He had a play where Jokuj was waiting for him in the paint, and he may have had Reggie... It might not have been Pope on this one, but you could see the whole time he was trying to find a way to either bring Jokuj further out to him for a pass, or if Jokuj didn't come completely out to him, he was going to turn to his right shoulder and shoot it on the left side.

He was seeing it all happen, and you could see the play. It was just slow, so it wasn't hard to figure out what he was doing, but he was waiting for the perfect positioning of where defense was at. Was like, Well, if Jokuj stays where he is now, I don't have a passing lane, so that means the shot's going to be on me. It's a little late in shot clock. Let me turn and go this way. On top of that, then he plays awesome defense. So there's- Awesome defense. There's nothing about him where you're like, We're getting a 27, 28-year-old package for a guy who's 22 years old, and that's not supposed to happen.

I was looking back because I remembered his rookie year, there was a game, and you and I had both just randomly watched it, and we were texting each other. I was like, Did you see that? Because I went back, I looked at his game log. He was bad for the first two months. Really, that was the coming out of the COVID season. But his stats are bad. Then there's this game, let's say it's like two-thirds of the season against Phoenix. It was the Suns team that went to the finals. I think this was the game you and I texted about when he had 42. It was just something there. You look at his stats, he just gets as that season goes along. Then the last eight games, he's like 27 a game, and he's hit in threes. Just over the course of the year, he jumped. But I remember that Phoenix game being like, There's something unusual about this. He's since then hit every checkpoint. But then you look at this season, I feel like he's hit checkpoints during this season, even from Team USA to the first half of the season to what happened when towns went out, when he had this extra burden, and he was able to deliver to now what he's been doing in the playhouse.

It feels like he's jumped four levels since Team USA. And those Team USA guys immediately were like, This is the best guy on our team. We were wondering if he was going to get minutes. And this is like, he's the leader of our team. The other thing I love about him, and it really reminds me of early LeBron, because I thought LeBron was an unbelievable teammate on those early Cleveland teams, like the '07, '08, '09. He was so much fun to see in person. He was so happy. He was so inclusive. He was just awesome to watch. And Ant has that same quality, I think, where he's just the hub of all the activity and the energy. And those guys fucking love him. They just are completely in on him.

For a cat to be miced up, and at that one moment in the game, they reared the miced up stuff, and Katz going to him, tell him to keep his composure. And for Ant not to just laugh hysterically in cat's face. I was like, I might vote him for MVP this year. But think about who we're talking All right, let me ask it this way because I've already alluded to it. Do you have moments where you're like, maybe he is this special that he's going to win this whole thing now?

Yeah, I thought of it yesterday. I watched the second app with Tate, and we talked about it, and I was just like...

Tate George?

Tate George. Tate Frazier, the Ringer's Own. Sometimes it happens sooner than you're ready, sooner than you think. That's one of the great things about all these guys. We're surprised by the age, but that's really not a good reason to be surprised. Tiger, it's like, Oh, Tiger. It's going to be so much fun to watch him. I'm not comparing to Tiger, but when Tiger came in, Oh, it'll be so cool if he can compete for a major. Then he fucking won the Masters right away. This is just how it goes sometimes. Guys just come in and they're fucking awesome. Gretsky came into the NHL. He was like, I'm going to take every record. I don't think he's Gretsky, but There are people that have come in. Lebron made the finals in 2007 with a fucking G League team.

Look, I still think that's one of LeBron's greatest accomplishments of his entire career.

Durant in 2011 and '12. He took that team in the finals. He was slaying Dragons every round. We were like, Okay, I guess they're ready. It's the history of this sport that sometimes guys are early instead of late. Wade, I felt like... Wade in '05, I think it would have happened, but he got hurt. Remember that? Then it did happen the next year. But I thought that '05, I thought he was ready to take the title that year. It was his second year in the league, and it would have been crazy. But it was like, All right, I guess this is happening. So I think it's in place.

Wade Wade's a good one. Wade's a good one because we usually don't get the early. But then I was thinking about, And. I'm like, Okay, so he's not going to make first-team all-MBA. If Embiid had been healthy, like Embiid might have won another one. It's like, If Ant had finished seventh, I don't know where Ant is going to finish. He's not going to finish the top five MVP voting. And yet I'll have moments. And it's not just because they won game one. And I'm not going to be shocked if Denver comes back and Jokić figures some things out and they're terrific. And maybe they have to get a little creative with what they want to do with Ant. And then if Ant gets bottled up, then all of a sudden, nobody else is making shots for two quarters straight from Minnesota. I'm not going to be shocked to see some of that stuff happen, but it would be really just beyond unique of Ant arrives, Minnesota wins a championship. It's not supposed to happen this way. Then all the postseason stuff comes in. You go, he wasn't even top five and MVP. Then next year, he's going to be the favorite.

If those things were to happen, I don't know.

Yeah. If Ant wins the title, first of all, if he beats Denver and makes the finals, he becomes the biggest under-30 star in the league. That's just like, mark it down. He might be getting... Maybe even beating Denver might do that. He's leaving Tatum, all those guys in the dust because he's just different. He's got a charisma to him that casual fans can see. Plus, he delivers over and over again. Plus, he's so fucking fun to watch. There's a world where they just win the title and he goes to Team USA and you have like, Oh, it's going to be LeBron and Steph and KD's team. How are those guys going to deal with that? Because now I almost feel like I'm going to get hit by lightning. But the dream team was like that in '92. Where it was like, Oh, this is going to be the Bird and Magic, and this is going to be the Then MJ just took it and it became the Michael Jordan dream team featuring Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and all these other guys. It's going to be fascinating if he actually wins the title to watch how then that transpires to the dream team.

Lebron being like, I always knew. I knew from the get-go this was going to happen, Fran. I've been telling him.

You didn't have him. Obviously, we all agreed on where Jokić is. No one had him ahead of Luka. I don't think anybody had him.

Because he wasn't.

Sga had the better year.

He wasn't ahead of SGA this year, but in the playoffs, he's averaging 33 a game, and he's fucking demolishing teams. He demolished Phoenix. He broke them.

Broke them.

That Denver game was the first time we've seen Denver. That game was tied with seven minutes left, and they got out-executed, and a team had a different energy. But I've been watching Hoops long enough that sometimes you can see when a team has the look. I do think Minnesota has the look. I just don't know if Edward... It's going to depend on whether Edwards is ready or not to really just start slaying Dragons now. But he did it against Phoenix, and he did it in game one against Denver. If I'm Denver and I'm thinking, Man, they have all this shit to throw Jokuj, it's going to be really hard for him. They have all this shit to throw at Murray, it's going to be really hard on him. Oh, and we don't really have anybody to stop Edwards if he's feeling it. That becomes Pretty hard series. They have a game seven in Denver. They have the pedigree. We've never seen it in this situation where now this is really sitting there. Is he going to want it too bad? There's just levels to this that we just haven't seen him in the situation yet, but it checks a lot of boxes, man.

We haven't even mentioned the other side of it of how good Dallas looks now and how great OKC looks in the first round, too. Even if he gets through this, it's assuming a lot. But yeah, whatever. I think it's- How funny would...

Let's say, Minnesota beats Denver and OKC beats Dallas, and now we end up with Minnesota, OKC, Edwards versus SGA, Jalen Williams guarding Edwards, size against no size really at all. Can Chet pull people away from the basket? That's actually a really great basketball series from a nerd standpoint. Then you have these two guys who are the best, other than Luca, the best under-30 guys. But It's sitting there now for Edwards. The defensive stuff they were doing in that game, who else has been on that level in this century? The '08 Celtics got there, I feel like. The '04 Pistons definitely. That Pistons team was awesome. '04 Pistons definitely. All five guys could play any other position.

Who else? They were awesome. I think San Antonio has always been really good defensively. I think some of those switchy Golden State teams are really good.

I was going to say the lineup of death I felt could get there and really just get stops for four or five minutes in a row.

I just imagine if you're another really good player, whether it was Booker or Murray, they're just, and I know I've already said it, but you're going like, Wait, what? Okay, can we just get a screen up here with a guard just so I can get an angle to get the ball half-court, get it set up? It's like now ants on me. Now Alexander Walker is on me. He steps up defensively, and then you're like, Okay, finally got past these guys. Wait, what?

It's so impressive. You know what Gobert did in that game yesterday that I've never seen in all the times?

The two-on-one retreat thing on the Gordon pass from Jokić?

Yes. Have you ever seen anyone do that to Jokuj before? He was the first guy who guessed it. It was like watching somebody pick off Tom braided in 07, just completely reading some passplay that had worked 100 straight times. And some cornerbacks, I'm going to bait him and then grab it. I couldn't believe he did it. That was the most shocking moment of the game for me other than the 19 Edwards place.

It's so hard because you're sitting there and you're going, All right, I want to come help on the best player in the world. Kat needs my help. I got to do it, but I've got to still pay attention to Gordon. I'm sure it's been broken up a few times.

I don't remember seeing that.

I don't think it's the only time.

What would you do if I personally don't remember seeing it. What would you do if you're Denver? What would you do with Edwards? Because I don't think Caldwell Pope, I don't know if he's the guy. If Edwards is feeling it, I think you need a different option. I think you start with Pope, but it feels like that's got to be Gordon. One of the things I was crazy about yesterday was Edwards was making mincemeat out of those guys. He borderline ankle-breaking shit on multiple Denver dudes and just getting whatever shot he But I think Gordon is probably the answer that needs stops, right?

I might not use Gordon in the first quarter on him and hope that he is going to- Right, I'm saying late. I'm sure Malone would go to it if he feels like it's going to be this bad. I do think there's a pride thing that we always overlook in that if you're Pope and you're watching a film of this stuff, you're going, All right, I have to step my effort up. But you know, Peyton Watson will go out there and lose his mind, but he's just not stout enough for Anne. Because Ant is quicker than everybody, but he's also stronger than everybody on these perimeter plays. I'm not saying it's Luca's strength, but imagine if Luca was also first step quicker than everybody. It doesn't matter. Luca doesn't need to be quicker than he is now because it works all the time. There could be some pride from Denver defensively. But even if you were saying, Hey, you're just going to send more help or do all these different things, when he hit that crossover, pull up to the right side, I was like, You There's no scheming against that.

Yeah, that's the rep. One thing Denver could do, I think, is when they're bringing the ball up, have Jokaj running up near Chris Finch, throw the ball over his head and just have him crash into Chris Finch again. Maybe they just need to take out Chris Finch one more time. Who's the biggest guy they could sit crashing into Chris Finch? I felt bad for that dude, man, sitting on the... But he was there. I mean, he just can't get up. There had to have been three times when he wanted to yell at a ref, Yeah, I imagine. They see him like a bullhorn.

Did you hear Barkley? He hadn't looked at the Denver roster really in-depth, perhaps all year. Oh, God. Then if you You never watched it before you're going, Wait a minute. Denver only has one big guy that they play. They're never going to play somebody else. Then they're like, Wait, DeAndre Jordan's on the team?

Yeah, Dirk was calling for DeAndre.

I think at some point, Barkley said, Zeke Najee, he's like, He's 6-9. He just looked at the heights on the roster and then goes like, All right, well, he's 6'9. He might be your Finch guy is what I'm saying.

Oh, you Zeke Nagi. I like it. Well, Here's the thing, Rusillo. It's really hard to repeat. It's really hard to have everything go right for two straight seasons, regular season playoffs. I go back to... It's so funny that this playing out this way now, that going back to that Friday night, a game we watched, the Wemby game, when he scored 17 points in three minutes, when Devante Graham, who nobody knew was still in the league, made a couple of big shots in that last minute, and it swung the seeds. And Denver went from, it could have been the one seed. They could have played New Orleans with no Zion in round one. They'd be playing Dallas in round two, a team that I think they'd much rather see than this Minnesota team. That one night might have shifted. We said it on the podcast that Sunday. Wouldn't it be weird if it was one of those years where this random stupid game with these players that we'll never think of again from this season swung the playoffs? But it's in play.

I definitely would have picked him in the opener. I would have picked him against Dallas. Who knows? Could OKC just have so much offense and with all their switchable wings on defense, would they not get manhandled? Would it be one of those weird Three out of the seven games, the Chet thing wasn't a problem, or four out of the seven, it wasn't a problem, and whatever, game seven, anything could happen. But the fact that Denver, Minnesota, they're playing in a second-round matchup.

This happens What, three times, four times a decade? Where we just get this... It happened that one year with Golden State Houston, I think. 2019, maybe, when it was the two best teams, and it just randomly was second round. That was second round. Sometimes it happens, and it's weird. I want to save OKC for Dallas for round two. We're going to end the YouTube stream. We're going to end part one of the BS podcast. We're going to thank Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing. Unless Cerruti... Is Cerruti YouTube capable for this or not? I forgot to bring him in and talk about Orlando. Is he? Oh, he is. All right, Cerruti, you have two minutes. Walk us through your feelings.

It just sucks that we had to go up 18. It's just I was accepting of losing that game. Anybody who asked me before the game, I was like, I don't know, we'll probably lose, man. This is one of those series where every home team is going to win. And then you go up 18, you get your hopes up, and then the end of the second quarter just sucked because as soon, Kevin Clark and I were texting about it because we're like, cool. It was 18, now it's 10, and they're going to go on a 6-0 run in the third quarter, and then it's going to be a ball game again. And I just don't have confidence in our offense. And that's exactly what happened.

Well, I had a chance to hedge at halftime because I had an Orlando series bet I like plus 160 for the series, and they're up 10 at halftime, and it was the easiest hedge possible to just take Cleveland in the points. I'm with you that the end of the first half looked a little dicey, but I still thought they were going to win. I don't know why. I felt terrible. I was like, Oh, their defense and Garland looks like crap. I should have known. You shot your wad in that first 15 minutes.

Yeah, the control that Paulo had in the first quarter and a half was for a guy in his year in his first game seven, his first play-off series of his life. It's stupid how good he is. And I don't want to hear about the efficiency. I don't want to hear about the shot selection. Rosillo touched on earlier. He has to do things that are so bad and dumb because he had nothing else going for him. So, yeah, When he takes those 15-foot fade away jumpers that go in a decent amount of the time, comparatively to other guys in the league, I'm not even that mad at it. It's just the Franz question is going to be a weird question. I still have faith in him. I don't know. Maybe he can't be a two. Maybe he can. He shot well every single year of his career, and this is the first year he hasn't shot well. He's improved. But the thing is, he's improved everywhere else. He's improved in his two-point shots. He's improved in rebounds, assists, everything else except for the three-point shooting. So are you going to say that he's just incapable of being a player?

I would say no. I think the overreaction this summer is going to be nuts, but he's going to have to play in the Olympics again, so he's not going to get a summer off.

Lock him in the gym. Rasella, where does Mo Wagner rank on best, I just committed a hard foul, and now I'm going to shit talk the guy a little bit, but he's not good at tactical. He's not good at tactical. Is anyone better in the league than him right now?

He's up there. When they had that jump ball when everybody was freaking out, then he felt left out. So then he just started crushing Levert. He had Levert. It was the first time I'd ever seen a guy try to tell the other guy he couldn't be in the jump circle.

I was thinking he's like those guys in pickup, the sorry dude guys, who they elbow somebody in the head or whatever. They push you for, Oh, sorry, dude. He's a sorry dude guy just in the actual NBA.

Yeah, he does something shitty and he has a huge smile on his face afterwards. Yeah, man, sorry. He just has a punch. I love him, but he's like the guy who- Was that your tooth? Yeah. Oh, my bad, dude. I love him, but I totally understand why he beat everyone else.

Then after the game, he's always like, Oh, no, you guys, you're in accounting, huh? You guys doing mostly... He wants to be friendly with you after he just beat the shit out of you and you're like, I don't want to talk to you for real now.

Yeah, I have a tour in labor. Can you leave me alone? Yeah. Are there more Wagner brothers or is it just him?

I think that's it. I don't know if the world can handle more Wagner brothers.

Yeah, I think two is probably enough. How did you feel about Jamal Moseley breaking down the 10-man rotation and burying Jonathan Isaac?

My only explanation would be, I don't have an explanation for the Isaac thing. My only explanation for the 10-man rotation is he's just grasping for straws, seeing if anybody can step up here. I have an explanation.

He made one shot for 20 minutes the in the last three games.

Okay.

It's not great.

That's fair. Tough for the modern day Bill Russell. I get it.

He shot it way better than I thought he was going to, especially in the playoffs. Sometimes he's a big, Oh, no, no, no, yes guy from three. He was hitting from the corners, but he almost had a weird green light where I'm like, You're feeling yourself too much offensive here, my man. I feel like their roster problems are fixable. We need a Max Truce. That's what we need. I don't know who that guy is, but if we had Max Struis, I would feel incredible going into a series like this.

Judd Howard?

Hey, didn't you draft Judd Howard?

Isaac said no, no, yes guy, and he's also a, Oh, no, guy.

But that's with other stuff. Can we have your summer wishlist? Let's hear it. Let's hear it once in for all. Give us gold medal, silver medal, and bronze medal for your summer wishlist. What's gold medal?

I texted you and Kev and said, How many Who do you say no for in the Booker/Donovan Mitchell situation? Would you put Franz in that deal? I wouldn't put Sugs in a deal because I think you're right. Something was off with him. I have no worries about Sugs in a playoff series going forward at all.

That guy's awesome. You wouldn't put Sugs in a Booker deal?

Well, no. Would you do Frons and Sugs? I get that.

And Picks? Yeah. This is Rudy. What do you do?

Are we at the Magic Reddit? I guess I would. I don't know. I'd really not like to. I'd put Frons in the deal. It's not even realistic. I hate how I'm talking about this, and now He was going to get mad at me. But no. Booker would be great. It's not going to happen. I'm talking myself out of the Paul George thing. I don't think it fits. It's another similar wing. I think throw the bag at Malik Monk. That's a great call. What's the deal with Donovan Mitchell? And otherwise, I think it's just adding shooting. Can you just get guys? Could you just add two max truces, wherever those guys are? I think they'll be okay. And a point guard. We need a point guard for sure.

What's the maximum offer for Malik Monk for you?

I don't think there is a maximum offer. Whatever it takes to get it done.

So you do like three for 110 for Malik Monk, you do it.

Because who else are you? You're not signing any other free agents. All you got to do is pay your own guys.

I think I agree with Sourudi because remember when Van Buit did it, Rosillo, when they did that deal and we were like, Jesus, But you know what? It's good to have Fred Van Blede on your team. We do the Ringer 100, and he's like the 65th best player in the league. It's like, All right, we had the money.

Why not get that guy? He feels like a plug and play guy. He's exactly what they need. A secondary ball handler can knock down some shots, doesn't have to... As You guys talked about, doesn't have to take shots away from Paulo. He's the perfect guy.

Yeah, the Houston lesson last summer for me was that I don't know if I'm going to get mad about any free agent contracts with all these teams that are bad that have all this cap space. Look, Orlando is good. They're not bad. It would have been awesome if Vanvlie shot it better for them. But when we saw those contracts, I was like, What are you guys doing?

Even the Draymond deal. And by the way, all this cap stuff is going up.

Oh, I take Clay, too, by the way, speaking of the Warriors. Yeah.

Voting on the Ringer top 100 really changed my perspective on this stuff because it makes you realize in a 30-team league, how few impactful guys there are. You're getting into the '80s and you're trying to talk yourself into a manual quickly. Is he number 94? And you're like, Man, what? This is crazy. I can't get to 100. So, yeah, I think it's worth it. All right, Sruja, you seem like you're in decent spirits.

Yeah, I'm We'll be good. If you told me that we would have lost in seven games like this before the season started, I'd snatch your hand off for that. This is a great season for them. I'm happy. It's all right.

Well, I'm glad Mo Wagner, I feel like he would have injured one of the Celtics. It probably worked out the best for me. I'm probably better at playing Cleveland. All right, we're wrapping up part one of our YouTube stream. Thanks to Cerruti. Thanks to Kyle Crane. Thanks to Rosillo. We are going to put this podcast up immediately. Then part two, which we're going to tape right now, not on YouTube, is going to go up at Midnight Tonight East Coast. Thanks for watching and listening..